EIPHNH
Dialogue with Ahmed Marcouch,
March 27 th, 2008.
Ahmed Marcouch is the Chairman (Mayor) of the District City Council of Amsterdam-Slotervaart. He is also one of the main inspirers of this web site.
Ahmed is a charismatic, realist-idealist Mayor of Moroccan origin, who is building bridges between believers (Muslims) and non-believers, and between people of Western, and people of non-Western origin. His ideas and beliefs appeal to many more people than the citizens of Amsterdam-Slotervaart alone, even to many more people than the citizens of The Netherlands alone.
Read more about my hero, on this web site: Ahmed Marcouch.
Freddy – in preparation for this dialogue – has done a Tarot reading for Ahmed, a few days prior to the actual interview. Ahmed's date of birth is unknown, therefore, Freddy has intuitively pulled his Character Card.
Guidance for this dialogue is the Tarot reading mentioned above.
Before the interview, Freddy has given the reading to Ahmed on paper, and has explained some things about the interpretation of the cards and the reading.
During the dialogue, the cards which Freddy has pulled, are in front of him on the table, in order to give Ahmed an idea of the symbolism and meaning of the cards.
Ahmed has never had his cards read by a Tarot reader before.
Freddy (F): Now, let's start with you Character Card, which in your case is VII. The Chariot of Victory. I think this card is quite appropriate and applicable to the way you lead your life and the way you see the world.
The Chariot is someone who has a lot of perseverance, the ability to concentrate (especially on one certain point or subject, which stands for depth, F). Multi-tasking is not your thing.
You are passionate and full of energy.
If we look at the symbolism of this card, we see a warrior on a chariot, with a closed helmet and armor, on the verge of leaving, full of concentration and energy.
What is guiding you, what is your drive? Idealism?
Ahmed (A): *thinking for a while* Yes, but it's something much deeper than that as well. Being human is my drive, if I may approach this philosophically. I strive for the highest form of human dignity.
If we live in a society in which injustice is being done to others, then, we too, lose our human dignity. Human dignity is organically linked to “the other person”.
F: And to the society in which we live.
A: Yes, but we ARE the society, with all our flaws, errors etc.
All my ideals are connected to human dignity. I want to be of service to others.
Sometimes, by the choice of my words, I might seem harsh, however, this harshness is based on love.
If you are unhappy with your situation, then, there is only one single person who can change that: YOU. Other people might listen to you, support you, give you tips, but, ultimately, YOU have to do it. This might sound harsh, but it is honest and fair as well.
F: Yes, but, at the same time, you show other people that they are capable of taking care of themselves, so, indeed, it is based on love
A: If you give someone a food package, e.g., you will not give him back his human dignity.
There is a story by the Prophet Muhammad about this subject. An interesting detail is that he was a prophet as well as a statesman.
A man comes towards him and he says: “Oh, Prophet, at this very moment, whilst I am talking to you, chances are that members of my family will starve to death”.
The Prophet replies: “Go back home, and look for goods you might be able to sell”.
The man goes back to his house, to look for the goods he could sell. Indeed, he finds some things that could provide him with some money.
He goes back to the Prophet. Muhammad starts auctioning the goods. The revenues are two Dirham. He gives the money to the poor man, and he says: “One Dirham will buy your children food, the other Dirham you have to invest. Buy an axe, and cut some wood. Then, sell the wood you have cut”.
The man follows the advice of the Prophet. He cuts the wood, sells it, and earns approximately 15 Dirham. Half of it goes to his family, the other half he invests.
The message in this story is that an “upper hand” is better than an “under hand” (in other words, an “under hand” is the hand of a beggar). To beg is unworthy, you should not want to do this, as a human being.
The man in this story was in a frenzy. Instead of looking for the answers and the solutions in himself, he approached someone else. The Prophet could have given him two Dirham, but, then, he would have been back the next day, asking for another two Dirham.
This is my message to the people. You have to be the director of your own happiness, of your own life. Try to look for the answer within yourself. There are chances, learn from others.
Support and help are always available, but, eventually, you will have to do the work yourself.
That is my goal and my drive, to pass on this message to other people.
F: The first card of the reading is II. The High Priestess. This is someone with a great intuition. Often, people with this card, are gifted in a paranormal sense.
Furthermore, this is someone who can see through people very easily.
His reactions are based on the message which comes from his inner voice. It is “female” intuition.
Do you recognize this?
A: Many people tell me that I am intuitive. I do not have a hidden agenda. What you see is what you get. I react and respond in a primary way. Of course, I think before I speak. If I sense that people are hiding something from me, it is very difficult for me to cope with.
I often sense that people want to help me, but, in reality, they want to “sell” me something. I'd rather have that they tell me directly that they want to sell something.
F: Are you someone who is able to predict certain things, in your dreams, in images you see? A: I regularly have had déjà vu, but that is something different.
F: So, can you do anything with the information which comes from that? Or does it just happen?
A: They are flashes. I am going through something, convinced of the fact that I have seen or felt it before. I have had this with some newspaper articles, for example.
F: If people are able to make predictions, or if they are gifted in a paranormal sense, they are going through a transformation. However, it is also a matter of choice.
I can sense with you that you are talented is this particular area, if you would allow it, but maybe it is not the right time yet.
Your occupation, your profession, at this particular moment in time, do not allow you to use your talents in this area. In the future, it is possible that you will commit yourself to helping others, supported by the paranormal gift you have, different from the way you are helping others at present.
F: The High Priestess, in this reading, is crossed by XIII. Death. Now, Death seems a horrible card, but it is not. Death is transformation. Someone who is starting something new, on the remains, or debris if you will, of the old.
I know that you have said goodbye a lot, in your life. You left Morocco , to go and live in The Netherlands. That is starting a new process.
What does saying goodbye, starting all over again, mean to you?
A: Professionally, I do not find it difficult to say goodbye, to go in a different direction. To me, that is a challenge.
But, in Morocco , for instance, when my father would leave for a few weeks, this was a big drama in my family, as if he would have left to go to war. We cried a lot, always.
When we left to go to The Netherlands, of course, I was excited too, a dream came true.
At the same time, it was hard, because my mother died when I was little, and my grandmother was like a mother to me. We had an intense, emotional bond.
Saying goodbye to her was extremely difficult. Even more difficult was the fact that I have not been able to say goodbye to her properly in the end: she passed away in Morocco , when we were in The Netherlands.
I still find it difficult to say goodbye. Members of my family live in Belgium and in France , and I see them every once in a while. Saying goodbye to them is always hard, because I am aware of the fact that I will not see them for a long time to come.
F: In your job, you said, it is less difficult to say goodbye?
A: Leaving the Police Force was difficult though. It was very emotional. I've had several goodbye parties and receptions when I left the Police Force. There were always groups of colleagues who wanted to say goodbye to me separately.
F: The feeling of saying goodbye is definitely prolonged this way.
A: The concept of leaving to do something entirely different – after ten years – was very difficult to comprehend. To start all over again, somewhere else.
In the local government (municipality) it is different, because you often encounter the same people.
F: Are you looking back a lot? Your card says so.
A: Yes, definitely. I have educated myself. By looking back, by evaluating myself and the things I have done, the role of my parents, I transform and educate myself. I tend to look at my motives, my intentions, why I have done certain things a certain way.
Often, we do not realize why we keep encountering the same difficulties. It certainly helps to look back at the things which have made us to the human beings we are today. I often do this, together with my brothers. Looking at our family history.
F: Sharing memories?
A: Yes, but critically.
F: Analytically?
A: Yes.
F: The next card is XIV. Art. This is not meant as creative art, but rather as the ability to unite people or groups of people who oppose each other. You are definitely a builder of bridges. People always call you a bridge builder. In this position, the card means that this influence is decreasing. One of your strong points, though, is bringing people together.
The present influence is Eight of Cups. This is a card which indicates standing still, looking back, the need for reflection.
How do you perceive this? It seems as if you have taken a few steps back?
A: To me, it is a continuing process, running, standing still, running again…..like sowing. For everything there is a suited time: planting, taking care of the plants, and harvesting. This is applicable to my profession, but to my relationships as well.
I'd rather consider it moments of contemplation than standing still as such. What will I do next? What will be my next step forward? Looking back and analyzing: what have I done, what did I accomplish with that, and where am I heading? Did we lose anyone along the way?
F: The card points out the present, a need to self-reflect.
A: I always do that.
In the last few years, there has been a constant tension, because I felt like having to convince others and myself, in a certain way, and in certain areas.
Which are the problems? Is my interpretation correct?
F: You said you had to convince yourself.
A: Yes, because, otherwise, it is impossible to pass on your ideas to others.
An artificial story does not impress anyone. It has to be sincere, it has to come from the heart. This is the only way the civil organization, the Board of the District City Council, and the people in the District can be convinced.
F: Lots of work!
A: Yes, but now, there is a certain sense of peace and stability, in which we count our blessings, and in which we take the opportunity to bring the things we have initiated to successful completion. We are still ambitious, but in a different way, compared to the beginning.
F: Does this also apply to you, personally?
A: Yes, in the same way.
In the last two years I spent every day of the week working, sometimes more than 16 hours a day. When I went to sleep, I could not stop my stream of thoughts immediately. This costs a lot of energy. At a certain point, I came to ask myself: “What about Ahmed?” I noticed that I wanted to take some time to read something else than my own professional stuff. I wanted to spend more time with my family, my children, and myself, to dedicate myself to my own spirituality.
F: To most people I have spoken with lately, prayer is one of the moments in which they really feel the connection with God, a moment of peace, a moment of contemplation, and a moment of being connected to yourself as well.
A: That is true. It is a ritual, which starts with a cleansing. This alone affects you already. When you start praying, you take on a yoga-like position. It is pure concentration.
It is a moment of realization that there are more things to life than just matter. You just spoke about the Death Card. I personally am not afraid of death, because it is a form of transformation. It is basically the same as birth. A child which comes to this world is screaming because it is torn out of its safe environment. It comes to a different world, with much beauty, and much misery as well.
F: Sometimes, we have to stand still to see things, in their proportion and their true meaning.
A: “Standing still” sounds…….
F: Negative, you mean?
A: Yes. Some things have to ripen before they can blossom. That is not necessarily the same as standing still.
You cannot help others, if you have lost yourself along the way. You have to be complete, yourself.
F: ……Otherwise, there is nothing left to give.
A: Exactly.
F: Here, you can see the card Queen of Coins. Her throne is situated in a fertile environment. She looks back and she sees a desert.
This stands for someone who looks back to a difficult and also to a stressful period. That is visible to yourself and to others.
Inside you, however, a flame is burning, according to the card in this position, Five of Torches. This stands for ambition and friction. This makes you feel anxious at times, and impatient as well. You are being asked to look at this carefully: which things come from within yourself, and which things come from external factors and influences? You cannot change things other people say or state about you.
A: I recognize that. For Dutch standards, I have had a very dynamic childhood. Ambition, the “engine” has been there since I was very young.
Many people think that I have created a very precise path for myself, politically. This is not true at all.
The flame within is the drive to do the things I do very well. That is the ambition.
Therefore, it was not difficult for me to reject the position of alderman which I have recently been offered.
As far as the struggle within is concerned; this is about finding balance. Solving problems without losing people along the way.
The dilemma: having great ideals, playing at high stakes, and being there for my family, for my children.
F: You have to take into account that this aspect, this struggle, is not immediately visible to others. The card is “in the dark”, according to its position in this reading.
A: Of course, I am affected by the fact that people feel insulted when I call some Moroccan boys “scum”. Sometimes, it is about their son or about their sons. This affects them.
Nevertheless, I still try to reach as many people as possible, and to convince them of my goals.
There will always be selfish and greedy people. They bring injustice upon others. I cannot understand that, e.g. if a shop owner is held at gun point and robbed of his money.
When we talk about human dignity, we often tend to think of Afghanistan , or certain countries in Africa . However, I think that robbing someone of the money he has earned to make a living is very serious, an enormous injustice. We should not think little of that. You could think that “it is only money”.
F: Money is also a form of energy………
A: Yes.
F: The card which refers to the future is Seven of Torches. The coming few months will not be easy. You have to work even harder, your inner strength will be challenged constantly. You need even more strength, more power, more guts.
You are advised to take care of yourself. To sleep enough, to eat healthy foods, to relax at times. Give yourself energy, physically as well as spiritually.
A: I can see that. Thanks for doing this reading for me *is holding the document in his hands*
F: The cover is in red and green, Fire and Earth, the most dominant colors in your Tarot reading.
I want to thank you for this dialogue!
A: Thank you.